Dagger Seeker rudder

David Cowell

New Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
5
Location
Portland Oregon
So many great replies. This looks like a good site where a know nothing like me can get help and learn! I did go to a paddle fest this weekend and try some other boats, most notable (to me) were the Eddyline Fathom and Sitka LT. Both really felt like a water sports car! An eye opener for sure as to the wide variety of boats out there and some of the differences in design ideas. Those were both skeg boats, and I was surprised at the feel of the Sitka at 14 1/2 feet. It really felt like it wanted to go and both boats seemed to be very easy to maintain directional control with or without the skeg. A pure pleasure to paddle. I tried a few other boats, skeg, rudder and bare hull. There was limited space to open them up so it was really more of a teaser, but it was a blast and got me wanting to try out many more designs and materials of boats. Dumped my first kayak (or as I called it, a half a roll) when giving edging the 16 1/2 foot fathom a try. Dumped the water and kept playing. I'm planning on going to a kayak shop or two to try some other boats, then continuing putting hours into the boat I've got so I can learn more.
I did notice on the rudder boats I tried that the gas pedal type rudder controls don't seem to have the amount of swing of my rudder. Probably about the perfect amount for it's proper use, but defiantly different. I still don't know what system, or size boat I'll land on but I will be pouring through the archive posts on here to learn, watching videos to try rolling and self rescue as well as the various paddling techniques I need to learn.
Some definite good thoughts on the rudder system to read and re read here. I'm not sure if some of the $350 replacement systems are the best option on a $225 boat vs. buying another cheap one to learn on, but many good thoughts on here.
 

JohnAbercrombie

Paddler
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
2,669
Location
Victoria, BC
I did notice on the rudder boats I tried that the gas pedal type rudder controls don't seem to have the amount of swing of my rudder. Probably about the perfect amount for it's proper use, but defiantly different.
Good observation. The length of the 'lever arm' back at the rudder works with the pedal movement to control the rudder angle. You can make the rudder more-or less- 'sensitive' to pedal movement by changing the attachment points for the cable at the rudder....often just a matter of drilling another hole in the rudder arm.
I forget the exact number, but I recall that more than about 30 degrees of rudder angle gets into a stalling situation.
Some boats have 'stops' to limit the rudder angle. The Necky Tesla I worked on recently had plastic blocks screwed to the transom for that purpose.

It sounds to me that you are 'doing everything right' so far- trying different boats, being cool with wet exits, etc...
You are smarter than I was! :)
 

David Cowell

New Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
5
Location
Portland Oregon
It sounds to me that you are 'doing everything right' so far- trying different boats, being cool with wet exits, etc...
You are smarter than I was! :)
I probably have a big advantage in patiently learning compared to what you did. Being over a half century old at this point it's probably easier to be patient, try everything and just have fun. So many boats, so many design differences, so much to try. My biggest frustration is not enough time to get on the water! Damn job! Dumping the boat this weekend does have me thinking about a farmer john wetsuit though since I know I've got many more swim sessions in front of me as I practice edging, self rescue and eventually rolling. a $60 cheap wetsuit might just make some of those practice days more comfortable.
 

mick_allen

Paddler & Moderator
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
3,267
more than about 30 degrees of rudder angle gets into a stalling situation

Even that's high as it depends on the aspect ratio. For the graph below I would think a typical rear of stern rudder to be abt AR 4 or thereabouts, so after 20 deg there's a significant fallout. There's still lift in the stalled situation, but it's very small and the drag is immense - so a max of 30 or less makes some sense. For anyone desiring paddling efficiency it would make some sense to limit it to 20 or maybe way less so that no drag is added with inadvertent unintended rudder movement.

LiftVsAngle.jpg
 

Mac50L

Paddler
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
273
Location
South Island, New Zealand
Half a century old, definitely a youngster.

Note that with the "gas pedal" full foot style pedal, hinge level in-line with the ankle (above the heel), you can have the rudder-lines loose and the rudder trails at minimum drag angle. Your foot on the pedal has pressure from the whole foot at the most comfortable angle. Change the foot angle a bit to steer.

Kayak testing / trying - if you find a kayak tippier than you like it will make a very good "up-skilling" vessel. You will end up learning to brace instinctively and a stroke can act as a brace. Having to Roll? A failed brace.
 
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