Delta 12.10 cockpit comfort

[oregontrail]

I am new to the group and wanted to get some input on a potential purchase. My partner and I have recreational kayaks (12 and 14 feet) and want to get into a "transitional" kayak for longer day and overnight trips. We are looking at the Delta 12.10, but I am not sure about moving to a smaller cockpit. I am 5-11 and 200lbs. Will I be able to easily get in and out of the cockpit and feel like there is enough room during the day. I understand it will be a transition from a roomy recreational kayak. Thanks

 

[cougarmeat]

OregonTrail, Your first post. Welcome to the Forum.

it is a tricky question and, frankly, depends on how those 200lbs are distributed. The problem is similar to trying on pants. I can buy three pairs of pants, all the same size, from three different manufacturers. They will all fit a little differently; maybe one pair won't fit at all. Same with Kayaks.

By "looking at", I'm guessing you are viewing a photo on the internet, otherwise, you'd be sitting in the boat. If you can't gain access to that model, maybe there's a dealer who carries that model or others in the Delta line. Delta's website says that the Portland REI (who have a sale in a week or so) and a store called Portland Kayak (6600 SW Macadam Ave) are dealers.

My "warning" tale is about the Eliza Necky, but really about boat sizes in general. The Eliza was touted as being designed for a woman's (or small stature) frame. But when my paddling partner Joy tried it out during a local "Demo Days", she did not like the fit. Also, years before I was ready to buy a used Kevlar Necky. So light, such beautiful cosmetics. But I just couldn't fit in it comfortably; the deck was too low for me. Note that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the Necky. It was just the wrong boat for Joy and me. We wouldn't have known that if we hadn't sat in them (or any Necky) first. So it is with other boats and other people. The boat might be just fine, but not for you.

Even if you can't find the exact Delta 12.10, do see if you can (probably at REI) sit in some Delta to see how it feels. You should be able to comfortably lock yourself to the boat with your knees and rock it from side to side.

Okay - after all that, I don't understand why you are going to the same size boat (the Delta is just under 13 ft) as what you have. You didn't mention the model of your current boats, but if you have 12 and 14-foot boats and you are considering a 13 ft boat I don't see much of a transition. What are you expecting to gain?

Congratulation on considering adventuring out on overnight trips. You get to bring all your camping experience and add the water element. Another thing it adds is a safety element because I'm guessing you will be going out to further and relatively more remote areas. I HIGHLY recommend you and your partner practice a self-rescue technique and an aided (one person in their boat assisting another who is out of their boat) technique.

It will have three results. First, you will gain, through actual experience (great teacher), appreciation for, "Dress for the water temperature, not the air temperature" (and probably never just carry your PFD on your deck again - if you have in the past). Second, you'll learn not to be afraid of tipping over. On a hot day, it can be refreshing. It's just an event. You go over, you get back in. Knowing you can get back in your boat by yourself is a great anxiety reducer. Third, it will strengthen a bond/team association with your paddling partner. If there has been any past tendency to paddle some distance from your partner, you'll start thinking more about the benefit of staying closer together.

As far as a technique for self-rescue, many start out learning to attach a float to their paddle, "seal" up on the back deck, and rotate into the cockpit (YouTube videos are your friend). My preferred method is called the "Heel Hook" (Again, YouTube). It is a lot easier for me. The one "watch out for" with the Heel Hook is a tendency to scrunch into a fetal position. You want to stay elongated. What I'm saying will make sense when you try it.

Again, welcome to the forum. Be sure to read some of the posts in the Trip Reports sub-forum. And next time you are near Powell's see if you can buy a used copy of "Sea Kayaker Deep Trouble" (vol 1 and/or vol 2). It's great reading in early spring to "get your mind right" for summer paddling.

 

[BigandSmall]

Being a bigger guy I always have a look at Seals spray skirt sizing to give me an idea on the size of the cockpit. I see the 12.10 takes a size 1.7 and the back band is right at the back of the cockpit. That tells me that it's a pretty generous cockpit and I should be able to do a butt first entry depending on deck height. I have a couple kayaks that take the 1.7 and depending on back band location and deck height is whether I scrape my shins or not. Like Cougar meat says though YMMV. My experience with Delta's though is that their cockpits are pretty generous and comfortable.

 

[Peter-CKM]

I did the same check of Seals sizing as @BigandSmall and agree with what was said. The 1.7 size skirt is about as large as you can go and still expect a neoprene skirt to not implode if you are hit by a wave. It is plenty large for most to get in and out, but on the larger size as sea kayaks go. I am 6' and 230 lbs and I do great with 1.7 sized cockpits - I can fold my legs in and out, which makes getting in and out much easier and requiring less balance. Smaller cockpit sizes, like the 1.4 size which is next size down, I often can't do that.

In Portland, you have a lot of excellent kayak shops. Alder Creek, Portland Kayak Company, Next adventures, etc. I would go down and demo from one of them and buy something from one them. If you can't find Delta there, look at other brands. If you want the same material as Delta, Eddyline is a brand that should be represented in at least one of the shops.

 

[rider]

I am new to the group and wanted to get some input on a potential purchase. My partner and I have recreational kayaks (12 and 14 feet) and want to get into a "transitional" kayak for longer day and overnight trips. We are looking at the Delta 12.10, but I am not sure about moving to a smaller cockpit. I am 5-11 and 200lbs. Will I be able to easily get in and out of the cockpit and feel like there is enough room during the day. I understand it will be a transition from a roomy recreational kayak. Thanks

Welcome to the group. About how you'll fit into that boat, it depends on your flexibility. If you have very stiff joints , or if you just don't like confined spaces, you may struggle. Otherwise, the Delta has a cockpit that's fairly large and roomy. I am 6ft1 and 190 and find most Delta cockpits to be too roomy for my liking. Try and decide

 

[oregontrail]

Thanks to everyone for the great info. Yes, I will definitely locate a local dealer and at least sit in the 12.10 and possibly test on the water.

We currently have a Perception Carolina 14 and Pungo 120. Both are great boats.

The reason for the change or addition of the new kayaks is the the significantly larger cargo area for overnight or weekend trips and the substantially lower boat weights.

However, the cockpits on the Deltas are smaller. As we get older, it is also harder to get the boats on and off the roof racks. We may end up keeping both sets so we don’t have to lug the boats to our lake cabin.

Thanks again

 

[SingingWaters]

OP, you're right to be concerned about the Delta 12.10's cockpit. I own a Delta 12.10. In my opinion, the cockpit size is a significant flaw on this otherwise great kayak, limiting it to small to medium paddlers. We have to judge the cockpit in the context of its class. At 12' 10" it's at the low end of what is considered "transitional" length, bordering on recreational. The Delta 12.10's cockpit is 17" x 32". That length is unusually short for a transitional kayak. Most are a minimum of 34". Yes, those two inches do make a big difference for entry and exit.

What sea kayakers find comfortable and effective is much smaller than what transitional and recreational kayakers find comfortable. Also, enthusiastic reviews of the Delta 12.10 almost never mention the paddler's size. The one reviewer who mentions her weight weighs 128 lbs. I would describe myself as a medium large person and the Delta 12.10's cockpit is too small for me.

Many older people don't have the physical ability (upper body strength) to enter and exit the kayak from the deck. They enter by placing a foot in the cockpit and sitting down. They may exit sidesaddle (swinging both legs over the side and standing up). These manoeuvers can be difficult with a 32" cockpit. Your toe needs to be able to clear the front of the cockpit to exit. That is especially difficult if you have long legs or are wearing mukluks or sandals.

A further problem is the knee braces in the Delta 12.10. They are molded in, not removable or adjustable. Compare this to the Hurricane Sojourn 135, a similar thermoformed kayak with removable knee braces and a 34" interior cockpit opening. The knee braces on the Delta further impede a sidesaddle exit.

While the front day hatch on the Delta 12.10 is convenient, it protrudes down into the cockpit. When you combine the short cockpit, the knee braces, and the front hatch, what you have is a more confined space that might not feel comfortable for larger or older people. I find that I have no room at all to shift my position or lift my knee to relieve pressure on painful areas.

If you have stiff hip or knee joints, you need even more space in the cockpit as exiting is difficult if you can't bend your knee back far enough to clear the front with your toe.

Seat position is very important for judging the available space. Contrary to what was said above, the Delta 12.10 does not have a backband and the seat cannot be moved all the way to the back. There's about 4" of space behind the seat back when the seat is moved back as far as it will go. So now the 32" cockpit is a 28" cockpit, definitely in the sea kayak range! I think the problem is that Delta designed this cockpit years ago and doesn't want to change the specs for today's larger and older paddlers. Also, it's a Canadian company and when it was founded Canadians were smaller than Americans.

Having said all that, the Delta 12.10 might fit you because you sound like an average or slim person at 5' 11" and 200 lbs. The front bulkhead is quite far forward. That reduces space for gear in the front hatch but it will accommodate your long legs. Still, if you have stiff joints, you should make sure you can bend your knees back far enough to exit. If you're strong enough to enter and exit by sitting on the deck, the 12.10 might work for you, but make sure your balance is good enough for that maneuver.

Finally, if the cockpit does work for you, you might also try the Delta 14, which has better glide than the 12.10. I would rate the speed and maneuverability as decent on the 12.10 and the speed as very good on the 14 (I can't remember how well it turns). If the Delta cockpit does not work for you, take a look at the Hurricane Sojourn 135 with its roomier cockpit or the new Hurricane Tampico 130.

All of the above kayaks would be an upgrade to your current kayaks. Although the short cockpit is out of synch with its transitional class, the Delta 12.10 is a great kayak. One other flaw is the weak bow and stern toggles, which are attached with bungee cords. I would not lift a loaded kayak by those toggles. (The Hurricanes have solid plastic handles.) Do be aware that you can't run any thermoformed kayak up on or against rocks, especially at high speed or in very cold water, as it will crack. That's the one drawback of thermoformed plastic, offset by being 10 to 15 lbs lighter than rotomolded. For me personally that's a very worthwhile tradeoff and I paddle only thermoformed, but I have cracked the bottom of a thermoformed kayak by running over a submerged tree stump, which I would call user error. Feel free to message me if I can answer any questions.

 

[CPS]

I'm not sure where you got the impression that a Delta 12.10 doesn't have a back band, it definitely does. Unless you mean that the height adjustable back rest isn't a band, which I suppose is technically correct.

Regarding the bow and stern toggles, they're not exactly held in place by bungee. They're a 5mm static cord which passed through a nylon padeye, which is hitched onto bungee to provide shock absorption. Once fully stretched out by the weight of the kayak, the static cord is supporting the weight.

If getting in and out of a 12.10 is an issue, the 15.5gt has a more roomy cockpit. Same opening, but a higher deck makes it a bit easier for some.

I'm 5'11" and 150lbs, I can comfortably fit I to any of the Delta cockpits, including the 12s. So it's largely going to depend on flexibility and where you wear that extra 50 pounds.

 

[SingingWaters]

The Delta 12.10, below, does not have a backband. It has a seat back attached to the base of the seat, it moves up and down and leans forward. It is not attached to the kayak, but rather to the seat.

I believe one review reports breaking a loaded Delta 12.10 by lifting it with the toggles. The depth on the Delta 12.10 is 13.5", which is pretty ample.

At 5'11" and 150lbs, yes, all Deltas will fit you and that's who they're made for. 200 lbs is a different story but perhaps it will fit the OP. Deltas are not made for today's large Americans.