Solitude - Modelling a Sit-on-Top Stitch and Glue Kayak

Discussion in 'Boat and Accessory Building' started by mick_allen, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    I'm putting up an album of building a 1/4 full size prototype model of a stitch and glue sit-on-top kayak. The build uses the same approach as would be for a full scale kayak but is much quicker and easier to accomplish!

    the gallery:
    http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/building/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=0

    Solitude is 15'-0" x 27":

    sol15-04.jpg

    I had a great relaxing time building this on 4 or 5 evenings at the kitchen table over christmas. A hot chocolate or nice cold beer was never very far away and i could take a break whenever i wished - a fun build.



    .
     
  2. Morpheus

    Morpheus New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Hello, do you have full size plans for this kayak?
     
  3. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    Not at this time. But I have been playing around with early steps of the idea:

    Solitude15d.jpg
     
  4. Christo

    Christo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    Hi Mick

    Any chance this has made it to a full size plan yet?

    I really love the look of it.

    Regards,

    Christo
     
  5. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    Hey Christo, thanks a lot for you comment, but no - I seem to have more fun drawing them out than developing them into reality.
    For example, I believe that the straked/panelized approach can be as or more interesting that other methods and although my sympathies go more toward the higher performance stuff [like surfing kayak etc], but to me a more difficult challenge is to bring some real design interest [my own at least] to the recreational side of things. There's no reason a rec boat can't have an interesting resolution.

    To that end, here's a design where I explored panel integration between the hull and deck as kayaks are really one shape rather than 2 separate pieces. If you look carefully you can see that most of the yak is actually made up of only 2 panels which mobius strip up and back and around in only 4 separate surfaces. Its a fun play on bringing everything together:

    interlude1b.jpg
    And here's another one playing a more historical game but with panel proportions that I find interesting. Non utilitarian at one level but fun at another:

    Sanguine10-0_iso.jpg

    And here's a silly but fun 13' gondola, symmetrically designed for simple rowing for 2 pple:

    GondolaPiccolo13compilation.jpg
    anyway, there are a whole slew more which I spend way way way too much time on developing, but I like it.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  6. Christo

    Christo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    I hear you Mick, we all need our hobbies. I love using Google Sketchup, have never designed something as complex as a Kayak though, but it’s quite rewarding. What software do you use? Freeship? Delftship? Something else? My real passion however is in building stuff, be it a new computer system or a red racing car bed for my boys. There is just something about the final product that is a kicker.


    I believe you may be right about the straked/panelized approach. Judging from your images it does make for some really interesting designs. Also, it seems like it may be a better style for a first time builder like myself, compared to something like say the Strip Built/Ceder strip method. You seem to have found a very good balance between the Stich and Clue method and the Ceder strip method, combining the best of what both have to offer.


    I’ve been looking on the internet for a “sit-on” wood build, recreational kayak for a while now and the Solitude 15 is easily the best looking design I have found. I in particular like the cockpit and flattish “deck” to the rear, I also believe, depending on how stable the yak is, that one could potentially stand up fish from this boat.
     
  7. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    Interesting designs, Mick - thanks for posting them.

    I don't understand your point about the number of panels (4 surfaces, etc...) I count 10 panels for that 'Interlude 10' boat, and the hull-deck join looks 'standard'.
     
  8. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    For that one [interlude 10] 'panels' are just arbitrary pieces of larger surfaces used to describe the shape. The shapes of many [where it can be done or makes some sense] of my boats tightly [I try] integrates all the elements into a 3d shape as the boats are experienced and often used in a 3d manner.

    So what is shown below was conceived [and could be digitally 'built'] as one continuous surface: every part of what you see could be thought of as one panel and the cutlines would be arbitrary [because of it's interlocked 3d shape it would 'break' if it was actually a flattened shape - like an orange peel breaks]. Of course it makes sense to piece it out at the bowstem and somewhere in the ctr and somewhere near where a traditional sheerline is, but it could be in other locations.
    So everything below is one surface including both sides:

    Interlude-Surface2.jpg

    The centre deck surfaces do something similar and continue with the hull, but they are 2 separate pieces [not one - mistake] and the inbetween panel for the side wraps around and is part of the other side as well. One would obviously split it at the bowstem and somewhere else. And that's part of another design step that hasn't been done yet. [I won't arbitrarily split panels around the centre-line of any boat].

    surface2ba.jpg

    they could also link at the other end too, but I need a little slack cut - as it's not perfectly the case as I look more closely at the actuality. But the idea is certainly there and with a few tweaks I suspect - it could be set up to continuously link on a conical - ie the stem ends of the panels are not parallel as you can see it lays out continuously - but not in a complete circle.

    And thanks Christo, although the designs I draw are not simple examples of the S & G process. My consideration is that the edges between the panels allows a design response that exploits those long lines. The best proces for me is a simple sketchbook which I have with me most of the time. From there I digitize them in draftsite [autocad], freeship, freeship+, sketchup, or rhino - whichever makes the most sense for the situation. But I vary the process a lot depending on where I am or how I'm thinking or if I'm just playing with versions.
    I don't think solitude would be stable enough for standing - I would want to make some significant changes if that were a consideration. Sit on tops take an immediate stabilization hit by requiring the cockpit to positively drain, so all the users weight is higher [ie less stable ] than in typical vessels. To then stand on top of that makes them take amore insecure hit.
     
  9. Christo

    Christo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    I really did not mean that your plans are simple examples on the contrary I can tell they are quite extensive and a build such as this could never be said to be easy. I merely think using a strong back and panels on what would normally be build as a stitch and glue build make a lot of sense and can remove a lot problems. also panels to me seem a lot more straight forward than hundreds of 2" strips. But being new to all of this, I could be completely wrong. How would you positively drain the cockpit on the solitude ?
     
  10. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    As I am not sure how much 'shape help' is needed for the more difficult parts of what I draw up, I simply use a fair amount of forms to be sure that one can drive the shape to what is desired. Having all numerous station points identified, one can 'perfectly' line up all the panels in the build as they were meant to be as you noted. The commercial boat builders have had lots of examples of their work to identify much less form intervention time savings and so I'm sure I overdo it to some degree . . . but hey, it's just a few extra hunks of scrap ply, right?

    You've pointed out a good part of the reason that 'solitude' is not really build ready. In order for the above water level [at design load] cockpit to drain, there must be scuppers or thru drains - ie holes in the cockpit thru or bypassing the hull. Although relatively straight forward at some levels it sure introduces a design complexity to the process. I think other S&G commercial plans/kits of SOTs use a ply build approach . . . while not a big deal, I am a little seduced by the idea of a 'chicago screw' approach where the scupper actually compresses in place and could even be part of the build. But this has not been done or explored by me to any great extent. I presume there'd be one near each heel and one or two under the seat.

    As far as panels and strips, more complex S&Gs would approach the time that it would take to build a stripper - it all depends on the level of intervention desired to complete each. Pulling a SOT off like solitude or any of the others would require one with some ability or some experience. I know on 'facetious' for one panel that required extensive pre-shaping it took 3 breakages in order to finally make one work. I know to some people that that would not be considered acceptable - I took it as a challenge. Most of them are not that excessive, but some do push the limits.
     
  11. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    Having the panels computer-cut (CNC) would be necessary if I were to attempt a complicated S&G build.
    As long as one can resist the 'work of art' temptation with strip builds, they probably don't take a great deal more time than S&G. A lot of the labour time is used for coamings, bulkheads, hatches, deck fittings, etc..so is common to both construction methods.
     
  12. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    The time I was referring to is for more 'complex' S&Gs where the panellization is more for coherence or balance [to me] than for build simplicity:

    1h-LeauRiderHP.jpg
    I could see quite a few builders used to just a few deck panels getting quite annoyed with all the tiny rear deck pieces for that approach! [but the more pieces the way easier to 'stitch' - I think simple tape might do a lot except for the pre-shaped downturns - but don't know]. Or for all that matter, the rec kayak 'sanguine' farther above . . . what new builder would ever wish to fiddle with all the panels for that - it's be more in line with a boat builder type I guess. Anyway for that one I see no reason not to bring in history, balance, proportion, whimsy, and a little humour to a simple big cockpitted rec boat. There's sure no doubt that all the extras you mention take a bunch of time that is universal to both approaches.

    CNC cut is not really necessary unless very tiny and awkward cuts needed like for small puzzle joints - othewise what's fairly important are stabilized or stabilizable, or justifiable plan sheets.
     
  13. JohnAbercrombie

    JohnAbercrombie Paddler

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,908
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    A friend found somebody to CNC cut the panels for a Black Pearl a couple of years ago and it looked like a great timesaver to me. As you say, if you had stable plan sheets (Mylar?) it would be possible to DIY the whole project.

    Some of your designs would be very difficult to strip-build, so the lotsa S&G panels is the correct approach.
    Or just get somebody with a big CNC milling machine to cut the boat shape into a big block of foam!
     
  14. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    There's no doubt that CNC would be a fantastic time saver. The panel accuracy all is checked out by me previously because prototype models are always built [when I have time, that is!] . . . so IF the cutfile generation was straight forward [it's a bit of a hassle if not trying to sell - ie another process] and IF the CNCer could be absolutely trusted with the cutfiles - as often the cutfile becomes the property of the CNC jobber - then it could be contemplated. I couldn't accept losing control after all the hours I put into each one and of course especially because each one is my work, period.

    But then again, I should maybe check it out for one or two boats to see what's what. I mean the spectrum of boats is wide, let alone thinking about size versions of each.
     
  15. tiagosantos

    tiagosantos Paddler

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Location:
    Burnaby BC
    Hey folks :) I was the friend that got those Black Pearl panels cut on a local CNC shop. Sadly the shop has moved away to Ontario, as the guy was relatively affordable and was awesome to work with. We had a written agreement that he was not to reuse the cut files or produce any other copies, as the plans were licensed from the designer, etc. I guess that involves a certain amount of trust!

    Another option would be a local maker lab type place. There is one in Vancouver that has a 4x8' (maybe larger?) CNC router that anyone can rent out and use after a short training session. Cutting panels for something like a black pearl (8 hull panels, 3 deck panels...) would be fairly easy. Something like that '1h' would be a fair bit more work - mostly laying it all up on the sheets to maximize material usage. And the shapes are so thin, a vacuum table would most likely not hold them down enough, so you'd have to use tabs, which will then involve a fair amount of cutting and sanding. If the material is thick enough and you have a router, it might not be as painful haha. For my 3mm panels, it was a fair bit of work to cut and sand all the tabs out.
     
    JohnAbercrombie likes this.
  16. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    That's very interesting tiagosantos - I should check that out. I forgot about the vacuum issue, but don't really have much problem with tabs as I'm relatively experienced cutting out a larger pieced yak and the similar 'facetious' - compared to the hand cutting the tabs would be nothing:

    facetious1b.jpg

    a minor problem would be keeping track of the sometimes similar shapes in all the approaches.
     
    JohnAbercrombie likes this.
  17. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    For interests sake and context, here's one IC [international class] version of the HP type shown a few posts above with proof of concept:

    LaLigneIC-3b-2.jpg
     
  18. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    Not really germane to this thread, but late last night I hit a milestone by first surfacing of this S&G ¼ scale derivative of the famous Oseberg ship. The derivative is sympathetic idealized geometric strake and hood-end proportioning as well as slight rounding of originally more angular sections and keel depth minimization . . . resulting in a 18’ paddle or oar possibility.

    . . . a milestone for this project as it’s been on and off my ‘board’ for more than 10 yrs . . . you can see a small indication of the thinking by the few layers that are also turned on. A good day - so might as well show it:

    Oseberg-surfacing2b.jpg

    [there are quite a few more steps to go with this, but now I can see it]
    **
    semi disregard next: It's a slight derivative of an Oceanic Kiribati canoe showing a completely asymmetric layout approach. photo dump for another post:

    KiribatiCanoe-Freeship310.jpg
     
  19. Roy222

    Roy222 Paddler

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    Mic,
    You lost me on the one surface concept. I just don't understand it, but you show amazing designs.
    I have one very mundane question. Could you use this design method to design Lapstrake construction?
    The Oseberg looks like it could be Lapstrake.

    Roy
     
  20. mick_allen

    mick_allen Paddler & Moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,069
    [The one surface comment is mainly an internal exercise base on leaning toward the thought that the deck and the hull have a relationship that can be explored. Its really irrelevant to the use of the boat and what it is.]

    Lapstrake for sure is the endgame for the Oseberg derivative. What I have been working on is a fully proportioned strake to strake and hood end system that matches what I think one ideal setup might have been. So that's been done as a minimal first step, the next steps are more detailed and onerous to derive and draw lapstrake panel shapes.

    The Oseberg drawing above will now give edge to edge panels like a S&G, but as lapstrake panels are tipped [in order to overlap] they have slightly different curvatures [and obviously widths for the overlap] than the S&G version shown. Some boat designers just show forms that the builders then derive the strakes from themselves [called spiling], some just show the S&G approach with an additional overlap added [ply rabbeting], my inclination is to get a more accurate representation of the tipped panel as well as the strake end changes at the 'gain' areas. I've done it for some other boats, but Oseberg is a little more challenging because of the strake number and the hood end shaping.
    To me it's fun - but only in small steps!!

    Here's a small 15' fully developed lapstrake derivative of one type of traditional russian boat [I'm a traditional russian boat fan!] called a 'shnjaka':

    shnjaka-overview-sm.jpg
    [the program I'm using is allowing bleed-thru of the overlaps and rib locations, so although accurately modelled, is not giving a true rendering of the situation]

    **
    Relating lapstrake to kayaks, I think it's fairly obvious that the 'sanguine' rec kayak, shown farther up the page, would work fairly well lapstraked, but would add an unnecessary complexity [detail design let alone aesthetics] dimension to an already articulated shape.
    However, here's one [surfeit] from quite some time ago that is a natural for partial lapstraking. The three front deck 'leaves' simply overlap each other and also overlap the flush rear deck panels to make an interesting composition contrast [to my mind]:

    Surfeit9-0_mstern3b.jpg

    **

    Edited to add later:

    In addition, there is another lapstrake kayak that I had been working on [hull exterior is glassed and deck ready for glassing] that is quite odd. [You can maybe discern relationships to ‘surfeit’ and ‘interlude’]

    This drawing is not that great, but every seam you see is lapstraked and the hull bottom you can’t see is flush but with the seams exaggerated to be coherent with all the other lapstraking. Probably the most difficult kayak I’ve done with lots of situations I would attempt to change in another rendition as this was the first time trying [and failing to a degree] some of the odd stuff. Much reverse lapstraking [a natural outcome of deck-hull coordination]as well a whole bunch of situations where an overlap changes over the stakes length to become an underlap – it actually makes sense! The stern-tail was unbelievably difficult [another case of the deck being required to become the hull – sort of an emerging chrysalid form] and one of the hull panels under had to twist 90 deg in less than 6 inches at the bow – and of course what happens under matches what happens over. A lapstrake kayak longboard in one sense, a test-bed in another but probably a folly to most!

    wavecrest2.jpg

    As usual, I built a ¼ full size model first and that really assisted in the build.

    The design approach is called ‘expressionistic lapstrake’ where the panel shapes attempt to express the environment of the kayak to its form.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019