wood s&g or sof?

[Stumpy]

Anyone have a preference between a wood s&g kayak or skin on frame? I've been looking at the kayaks at yostwerks.com and am re-thinking my prefernce for the wood yak. Skin on frame seems cheaper, easier, and quicker to build, and, with a bit of care as to what I beach it on, should hold up well for my purposes, but I have no experience with type of boat, so I was wondering if anyone knew a dark side to sof that I'm not anticipating?

 

[Kheyashunka]

Building

Salutations from the midcoast,

Included is a shot of the shop...

I'm building my first S&G, (tape & glue) it only had a dozen stiches. I have built(re) three SOFs. You can see a couple off to the side, one is getting new hide, sometime :roll:

The construction methodolgys are opposite ends of the spectrum for sure. SOF's seem to come together quicker . I have built all greenland lines, all pegged & lashed, no nails, no glue.

Dark side of SOF's, not much really, if anything it's the skin, in my opinion. I skinned Q1 (qajaq 1) with canvas and it rotted pretty bad within 18 months, I rode it pretty hard though. NO salt on the midcoast so Iwould throw brine water in every now and then fromt he water softener, but I guess it wasn't enough. I'm told that a constant salt diet prevents mildew on the canvas. I reskinned with polyester and I tried to baby into the beach once in rough on Lake Michigan and got about 10lbs of sand in the boat. It was eating through in several spots so I got that frame sitting for reskin. Q2 is skun with canvas and it is so low volume it's not much of a paddler, but a good roller. Q3 is polyester and I actually paddled for three hours this past week. Lots of ice still. It is pretty low volume as well, paddles really sweet. It's 17ft, healthy rocker. All three SOFs are slightly different. Skins hold up well, I'm careful launching/landing.
I have wanted a hardshell kayak, so I bought a kit from CLC last fall when they had a sale. It is an arctic hawk, I had paddled a hawk a couple dfferent times. Several folks in the club in town have S&G or strippers and I really loved the way they looked. I plan to paint my hull and leave the deck natural. A lot WCP contributors and builders are pure artisans, really sculpt some mag watercraft, and lurking around here has been an inspiration to jump into S&G construction.

Stay tuned, Jeff

 

[oldsailor]

Like many paddlers, I've thought long and hard about building my own kayak. My wife rolls her eyes at the mere mention of another kayak for myself, but I might be able to squeeze something in for the grandkids. Hailey turns 7 at the end of this month and she could paddle solo last year; I'm thinking that she can use the Coaster when I'm not and that will let me know how to proceed on the kids' kayak.

We've also talked about a Pygmy triple for use with a group because it offers a safety cushion with that extra cockpit in case a paddler becomes incapacitated. We'd only have to tow an empty kayak not a kayak with a hurt paddler and another kayak supporting him/her. That and the extra carrying capacity. But now I'm finishing the mutha-ship which would almost certainly accompany the paddlers. In addition to being a "sag wagon" it would provide a legal ship-station radio license for VHF use among the boats.

S&G kits seem relatively easy but I've been told *not* to build a "kids" kayak; instead I should build one of the 13 or 14 foot regular boats. I wonder what other WCP denizens think.

I'm intrigued by the week-long seminars during which you build your own SOF kayak all for $1k. Has anyone done one of these and any comments?

One handicap is the lack of suitable wood here in central Washington. It's pretty much pine and redwood. I'll have to find some outlet in Seattle or order wood from an Internet source to do a SOF and go to Anacortes to get suitable plywood for a S&G unless I do a kit.

There is, of course, the SOF Coaster whcih, until I got mine, was high on my list.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA

 

[Stumpy]

The pattern I'm looking at uses a poly skin, and three of the main launch sites I plan to be using are either fine sand or off a low dock, with no beaching. There is always the possibility of rock strewn beaches, of course, but primarily smooth sand or water at put in and take out, so I felt the sof might be just the ticket for the purpose. for abuse, I'll stick to my tupperware yak- can't seem to kill it, and it seems to love bouncing off rocks. maybe next year for the wood.

 

[mick_allen]

well stumpy, your situation seems made for a sof - you've got good put-ins, you've got another yak for abuse and you want to try something new but that is fairly quick.

sof's will fit that bill easily.

unless you like the cameraderie and speed of a course, i would think that building on your own will give more huge satisfaction, more variety, as well as keeping the low price - it is one of sof's features. there are lots of good books out there and forums to give guidance.

about the only drawback for sof's might be lesser comparable inner volume for gear because of all the inner framework.

and craig, i would build a quick kid sof, but wouldn't waste my time on a kid s&g - but would have no problem with a slim small s&g that would both fit a kid with extra foam added, but still have a large enought ckpt for me too so i could test and fool around with a lower vol and slim yak - could only increase my skills.

mick

.

 

[Stumpy]

Thanks, Mick, I think that pretty much settles it. I'm not too worried about not having stowage room, as I can't think of too many places within paddling range of New York city that I really want to camp. My main objaective is to move on to a faster, more seaworthy craft that I am comfortable paddling to extend my range. oddly enough, there is a lot of water in the heart of the metropolis that warrent exploring, if you are willing to face three foot wakes from shipping lanes comming at you fromm all directions, and local fishermen trying to run you down while they are busy reaching back for another beer (been there, done that, they missed).
Craig, I, too wouldn't build too small a boat for the grand kids, unless it was sof. I you look at the website I listed above, www.yostwerks.com , they have plans for free, and two or three models sized for kids that you can build for under $3-400, and, according to the articles inside, if they are old enough to paddle, they're old enough to help you build them. Might as well get 'em hooked young, and it gives them a sense of pride, too, along with giving grandpa some quality time!

 

[kelly t]

Craig, I, too wouldn't build too small a boat for the grand kids, unless it was sof. I you look at the website I listed above, www.yostwerks.com , they have plans for free, and two or three models sized for kids that you can build for under $3-400, and, according to the articles inside, if they are old enough to paddle, they're old enough to help you build them. Might as well get 'em hooked young, and it gives them a sense of pride, too, along with giving grandpa some quality time!

I, too, vote for the Yostwerks kayaks.
My children and I built one last summer (and have a second one in progress now), and it was an excellent opportunity to teach responsibility, goal-setting, patience, persistence, math,.......

It was, as stated earlier, a great bonding experience, too.

As for cost, the canvas 'skin' was $15 (10 oz canvas from an art store), the frame is 1/2" plywood and SPF 2x lumber. We used a 1/2 sheet of the ply to make frame parts for three kayaks! And the longitudinals can be cut from one or two 2x4s. We used artificial sinew from Tandy leather (about $10 on sale) for the lashing, and bamboo skewers for the pegs (one package from $1 store). Paint was free from the recycle center...
The paddle was from leftover material from the frame, and some scrap 1/8" ply. Add a bottle of glue, some sandpaper. A few feet of cord from the home center gave us some deck lines, and bow/stern loops.

Total cost was around $50 !
Building a sense of pride and accomplishment, and a great relationship with your child.....(cue moving music from Mastercard... ..... Priceless !!

 

[Stumpy]

Wow, I didn't realize it could be done that frugally, but I must admit that when I figured 3-400, I was assuming the most one could spend, and possibly including possibly a coating of rhino skin on the bottom for more abrasion protection. I knew I was being as high- priced as I could, figuring that just the 4mm okume for a s&g could easily run 2-300 and up by itself.

 

[Stumpy]

that kayak looks great, too!

 

[Roy]

But where's the spray skirt?

 

[woodensoul]

I am a strip guy, but a quick comment on costs of S&G. This is based on a buddy of mine's experience who does not post here. He has built 7 or 8 of these and does not buy kits. It's the kit that is expensive. He gets his plans from CLC, uses various grades of door skins from $10 a sheet to Okume, and keeps them light by not doing a complete glass wrap of the boats. He seem tapes them and does a full epoxy paint of the hulls. His boats come in at $300 - $400 complete. He has been paddling these for years... So these boats do not have to be costly either...

 

[oldsailor]

I had not run across yostwerks in my web surfing; inexplicably. I thought that this past winter I'd managed to hit every English site that remotely included kayaks... and a few in other languages.

It sure looks like a SOF would be the best choice. Because getting acceptable wood here is difficult, the idea of using plywood and 2x4s and canvas from a local art store... well, some art store... is really enticing. Plus they look pretty good.

So... another project in addition to the mutha-ship, the yurt on Whidbey Island (1 block from the community beach), the garden, the boat lifts for the jet skis (ya, ya... I know) and the business. Notice which part comes last.

Thanks for the nice ideas.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA

 

[Stumpy]

I had not run across yostwerks in my web surfing; inexplicably.
It sure looks like a SOF would be the best choice. Because getting acceptable wood here is difficult, the idea of using plywood and 2x4s and canvas from a local art store... well, some art store... is really enticing. Plus they look pretty good.
Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA

If you are unsure about canvas, which does tend to rot, pvc can be had from sign shops, sometimes from old or unused banners; worht a try anyway, I found one shop here that will sell me pieces pretty cheap, if i'm willing to piece it together. Getting decent clear lumber here in any length isn't easy (or cheap), but I have a freind who travels from here to Alabama regularly, and is bringing kiln dried cypress next trip, cheaper than I can get cedar.
So far, impatient as I am, I laid out the offsets for a couple of models, realized that they were a bit tight for my plus-sized body, so I took a smaller design, and multiplied everything by 110%, which seems like a better fit for me. Then I remembered that I had a partial sheet of exterior ply out in the shed, and cut the stations from that, built a strongback out of some bich ply that I buried due to horrible surface defects that made it unusable for anything else. I may just take up the challenge, and see if I can make this thing for free...

 

[woodensoul]

I may just take up the challenge, and see if I can make this thing for free...

Right On! Go for it! Post the build log as Stumpy's Free Boat!

 

[Stumpy]

Way back when I was in art school, I got into hand made paper sculpture. I found a source for shredded computer paper being discarded by the college, and was making rather large (4X8 and larger) sculptures, when the faculty advisor for the whitewater club happened by the studio one day. He took one look at the paper, and asked me how they held up, so I grabbed one end of one and lifted the whole thing up.
Then he asked me if I was aware that the university held a paper boat race every spring. Long story short, we pressed a paper kayak out of one of his fiberglass kayak molds, coated it liberally with melted microcrystaline wax, and won the race hands down two years in a row, until they found a way to disqualify the craft.
Durability notwithstanding, they were very fast, and weighed about 12 pounds, around a pound a foot. cost then was a half gallon of yellow glue, ($5.00 back then) and $3.00 worth of wax, for a total of $5.50, cheapest boat I've made to date.
Now, I do know of a water-based epoxy that is supposed to be totally waterproof when cured, if I had access to the molds, it might be possible to glass the whole thing when it is popped out... Hmmmmm, maybe I should try to contact him again, though most people don't use 'glass boats for whitewater anymore.

 

[mick_allen]

lovely story stumpy!

if those races every had unlimited cardbd and duct tape, i often wondered about just making a quick s&g outa the cardboard - wouldn't need the mould step.

after 30 min in the water would have a 'tern into mush' or the 'magic mush' or the 'clc cl-no see anymore', or the 'jem jumbledup', etc. etc. heh heh.

 

[Stumpy]

Actually, the course is 300 yards, and run in three heats, so it did last the day, but I wouldn't trust it beyond that. It's still run every april, google "cardboard boat race", or "cardboard regatta", in Carbondale, Illinois. It was started as a couse credit for the college of design, which boasts Buckminster Fuller, though I understand he never taught there. Guess he was too busy designing geodesic domes.