• We apologize for the somewhat convoluted sign-up process. Due to ever-more sophisticated attacks by chatbots, we had to increase our filtering in order to weed out AI while letting humans through. It's a nuisance, but a necessary one in order to keep the level of discourse on the forums authentic and useful. From the actual humans using WCP, thanks for your understanding!

Another opinion and question about rudders...

Did the issue [rudder caused leecocking] in John's post #11 not happen as he thought?
**
The locale for that incident was the mouth of Roberts Bay (Sidney BC) with a stiff wind blowing right off the land (westerly). I had been paddling south and I was trying to turn the boat though the eye of the wind so I could turn north to seek the shelter of Tsehum harbour. When I eventually did get there, a sailor told me that his masthead anemometer had been registering 35-38 knots throughout the whole episode. In less wind I wouldn't have learned the lesson about boat handling so well!
How we got into that situation was a classic 'groupthink' cavalcade - a story for another day.
 
Another data point:

A couple of days ago we had a good blast come through, straight from Antarctica. As I like to do when a gale comes, I went for a paddle into the wind until I was stopped by a good squall. I estimated the wind strength at 40 knots plus, from the williwaws and spray produced. I was broached and had to surf downwind. NDK Romany, no rudder or skeq.

The weather station 3 kilometres directly downwind recorded 55 knots at the time!

Even with no rudder, I wasn't paddling up into that! :oops:

Photos are from a helmet-mounted GoPro; I was a tad busy to take pics.

Windy13-1.jpg
Windy16-1.jpg
Windy3-1.jpg
Windy4-1.jpg
Wind29Jun21.jpg
 
No real preference, except for long trips.
I currently have ruddered and skegged kayaks.
-
My first paddle up the Australia coast, I paddled a Caffyn designed kayak ('Arctic Raider', a ruddered, Nordkappish' design).
Was getting along fine until one nasty experience in the surf breakout one morning.
I got flipped going out, tried rolling several times each side, finally successful (reason of difficulty another story).
In all this commotion, the rudder somehow deployed and got 'stuck'.
I did not want to go back in (in the surf), so decided to paddle the day with a deployed, unadjustable rudder (at a bad angle).
I had a very difficult crossing of a large bay (much paddling on one side).
-
On that stretch of coast (east coast Aus.) at that time of year (southern hemisphere fall season), there is a predominant SE trade wind, so, heading north with a strong, quartering tailwind, a rudder or skeg is desirable (to the alternative - neither).
On my next trip up that coast, I paddled an NDK Explorer, with a (rope) skeg.
I'm not real handy with fixing stuff, so the simpler the better for me.
With a rudder, lots of stuff can go wrong. With a skeg, the cable can go wrong. That's why I preferred the 'rope' skeg, it was something even I could repair if something went wrong (held up by a bungee, deployed when bungee released (or vice-versa, I forget)).
 
One of the most important lessons I learned in whitewater paddling was this: to maneuver a boat well, you MUST be going faster than the water around you.

It seems like this is a pretty obvious statement, but in whitewater anyway (and I suspect possibly sea kayaking) you'd be amazed at how many people ignore it. :)

It's even true in mountain biking on dry land: momentum is KEY! To get through rocks, over small logs, etc. you must be moving fast—slow down, and you'll be stopped in a heartbeat.
 
I paddled a Caffyn designed kayak ('Arctic Raider', a ruddered, Nordkappish' design).
Just a note - Arctic Raider - actually a Sission designed variant of the Nordkapp. Though Paul was given one I'm not sure he ever paddled it and stuck to his Sission built Nordkapps.

As for JKA's pictures, try handling a 30' yacht in those conditions, in the middle of a race, about 2 miles ahead and to the left. Yes, laid down on her beam ends as they say and with the smallest jib and deepest reef. The owner wasn't with us that day and turned up (by car) as it eased off and we were sailing into the mooring !!!
 
Some sellers will tell you that one of the motivation for “features” is marketing - like that “day” hatch behind the seat that you have to be a Cirque du Soleil contortionist to reach. Now it’s difficult to find a boat without a skeg or rudder.

I paddle Mariners so have neither. I did learn about load balance. Mine don’t have the sliding seat. On one launch I was rushed and instead of working to put a large-ish bag in the rear, I just shoved it amidships. Wow, did that boat ever handle better in the wind. So weight in the rear is good but not to the extreme.

In the olden days, rudders were talked about in terms of turning the boat and were denigrated for added drag. All sorts of calculations were made showing how much distance you’d loose on a long paddle when “dragging” a rudder. Then people realized all the energy it took to make correcting strokes. Now it feels like people know how to turn a boat in more traditional ways and the rudder’s job is more to allow a straight track against wind/wave forces. So you set the rudder to offset an off course push and continue with your forward stroke, minimizing correcting strokes.

Also back in those days the rudder peddles moved in and out. They had a spongy feel. If your foot came off one peddle while you were pushing on the other, you’d have little to brace on. But then the “gas pedal” design arrived. Those are set at a fixed distance. They moved with the rocking of your foot (toe push) rather than moving your leg in and out.

As I understand it, the skeg can also be more involved that just up or down. I recall reading that you lower it just enough to correct the off course tendency. Any lower and it just presents more drag or possibly over-corrects. If you get a boat with a skeg, remember to tie a cord to the blade (there is usually a small hole for that) that you can use to pull the skeg down if a small rock gets it jammed up.

I’ll admit a twinge of jealously if I’m paddling into a cantankerous wind and my rudder/skeg friends are paddling straight ahead while I’m in “starboard, port, port, port, starboard, port, port, port” mode. But then, I don’t have to bring a set of craftsman tools as repair backup.
 
Last edited:
I’ll admit a twinge of jealously if I’m paddling into a cantankerous wind and my rudder/skeg friends are paddling straight ahead while I’m in “starboard, port, port, port, starboard, port, port, port” mode. But then, I don’t have to bring a set of craftsman tools as repair backup.

There is something to be said for "What ain't there can't break."
 
Also back in those days the rudder peddles moved in and out. They had a spongy feel. If your foot came off one peddle while you were pushing on the other, you’d have little to brace on. But then the “gas peddle” design arrived. Those are set at a fixed distance. They moved with the rocking of your foot (toe push) rather than moving your leg in and out.
Spelling - Pedal
I think you will find the gas-pedal type (Laurie Ford, Tasmania 1970s, British designs 1960s) was well before the sliding ones. It appears the sliding ones came from America. They certainly were fitted to Puffins.

Note that proper gas-pedal type aren't toe operated, they are foot operated with the whole foot supported by the hinged pedal.

I’ll admit a twinge of jealously if I’m paddling into a cantankerous wind and my rudder/skeg friends..... But then, I don’t have to bring a set of craftsman tools as repair backup.
Tools? What for? Ask Paul Caffyn if he has ever carried tools to fix his rudders over 10s of thousands of miles. I certainly haven't over the past 4 decades.
 
I got flipped going out, tried rolling several times each side, finally successful (reason of difficulty another story).
In all this commotion, the rudder somehow deployed and got 'stuck'.
I did not want to go back in (in the surf), so decided to paddle the day with a deployed, unadjustable rudder (at a bad angle).
I had a very difficult crossing of a large bay (much paddling on one side).

If I recall correctly, Seaward Kayaks puts a bungee keeper on their rudder equiped kayaks that goes over the tip of the rudder when it is stowed. I expect this concept was originally to keep the rudder stowed in the slot while you sped to the put in at 110 KMH. However, it would also work to keep the rudder from deploying in the situation AndyM describes above me thinks.
 
Mac50L I will always honor a NewZealander’s opinions about water/sea issues over mine. And thank you for the spelling correction. Spelling isn’t my strong suit (actually a hearing issue) so I appreciate the corrections. My worst when went I meant to say skeg in one post and it came out sag - it was a contextual thing. So it isn’t the first and won’t be the last. I can only edit until my edit window closes.

However, on the toe vs foot issue. The last “gas pedal” rudder I saw had a fixed bar positioned about where a foot’s mid-arch would be. A pedal pivoted around that bar. The pivot was done by pushing with the ball of the foot (i.e. toe). Definitely not the same as the sliding pedals in the Dagger Vesper. Those were pushed forward with the whole foot - though it was usually also just the ball of the foot, depending upon how your foot fit on the pedal. Some vendors were peddling those pedals so people could push a pedal to turn perpendicular while paddling.
 
If I recall correctly, Seaward Kayaks puts a bungee keeper on their rudder equiped kayaks that goes over the tip of the rudder when it is stowed. I expect this concept was originally to keep the rudder stowed in the slot while you sped to the put in at 110 KMH. However, it would also work to keep the rudder from deploying in the situation AndyM describes above me thinks.

My Wilderness Systems Tsunami has one of these—it's great, but there's no reaching it to unhook/hook it once you're on the water.

Re: day hatches, I have one and don't have any trouble reaching it, though admittedly I grab things from there by feel (I can't really look down the hatch to get something, LOL). Still, I find it's easier to stow things behind my seat—much easier to reach back there (again by feel) to grab binoculars, a water bottle, etc.)
 
It appears the sliding ones came from America.

I'm sure the sliding foot brace rudder pedals were probably just an offshoot of typical whitewater kayak footbraces—they were made from the same hardware used for footbraces (so yeah, cheaper for the manufacturers).

Nowadays most whitewater kayaks have just gone to no footbraces (paddlers just shove their toes down at the pointed bow of a boat) or a foam bulkhead to brace against.
 
I am an old recreational kayaker with some long distance trip experience including a solo trip from Juneau to Victoria mainly along outside coat 20 years ago.

I believe that K-1 and Surf Ski have a rudder for efficiency.
if the efficiency is your priority, a rudder would be a good choice.

For a long distance paddling, a rudder is very beneficial especially when you sit with your knee up ( flat water style). You can focus on forward stroke ,navigation and checking the changing weather and sea state while keeping your bow to where you want to go. (straight line).

It also helpful when I tow other paddle in high wind and swell.
The last few years, I paddle a skeg boat ( Nimbus Illusion). When I tow other in those condition, I prefer to have a rudder for the same reasons above.

At the same time, my style of kayaking has been changed over the years. I enjoy paddling at slower and paddling very close to shore ( hugging shore) where we see more wild life , and sea state is more fun. Then I paddle without rudder or use a skeg boat.
 
Forget your rudder [40cm! it's prob a worst-case!] - it's any rudder that has some depth on any typical sea kayak:
So forget your rudder - it's about a specific issue: leecocking.
Doesn't make sense. Turn the rudder so it doesn't have any effect on the water = no rudder.

Do you also think the leecocking scenario is BS: a tale . . . that also signifies nothing? Did the issue [rudder caused leecocking] in John's post #11 not happen as he thought?
He didn't use the rudder correctly.
has anyone been in an immoderately powered vessel in beam seas? a sailboat near a lee shore?

I first started sailing near 70 years ago. I turned our rowing dinghy into a sailing dinghy. Books said you could sail to windward so I designed everything, built it and learned to sail as a kid. To save cutting holes in the hull I used a leeboard and moved it from lee side to lee side when going about.

Lee shores? Lots.

Longest sailing trip? Philippines to Japan. So from 7'6" to 45 foot and owning a Flying Dutchman Olympic dinghy in between. I used to cruise that with 8 or 10 year olds or single handed.

As for mentioning sliding pedals, if you can't design the rudder system properly, don't use poor design as a reason why the concept won't work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CPS
I think I covered it quite well in post #2 with lots of weasel and weaselly clauses and CYA statements and that there are problems in some . . . some situations with some users.

and in your case:
In your case, you are so nuanced and able that you have the skills and understanding to do whatever you wish and furthermore to finely discriminate between various situations to predefine and re-adjust to whatever you wish. It is irrelevant to you.

that doesn't mean there aren't 'some situations' to 'some people'.

but what the heck . . . no fun without strong statements:
those 'some situations' can lead to death, destruction, and devastation . . . so rudders arguably should not be for many people who aren't aware of or able to handle that danger.
 
The first post by SWriverstone covers it with regard to weathercocking, "In my experience, (article referred to) this is complete BS."

Totally correct as I've already said, turn the rudder and it can not in any way influence the weathercocking of the hull.

I'm sorry mick_allen, post #2 just doesn't make sense.

As for a bit of bungy to hold the rudder when retracted and for transport, that's been around a long time and used by various manufacturers. The Daggerboard rudder doesn't need it because the pull-up "string" is at the top of the blade and pulls the blade along the deck and holds it straight. It can't move when retracted. A New Zealand design so it has to be good.
 
Back
Top